Adrift in the River of God (Part III) |
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The Moravian Falls Project:
When I arrived at MorningStar in the 90’s the fellowship was abuzz with talk of a prophetic retreat being built in the rural North Carolina Mountains. It was spoken of often by Joyner and his sentiments about the project were openly shared. It was affectionately referred to by Joyner as “The Moravian Falls Project.” He had purchased 400 acres of rural mountain property near the whistle-stop village of Moravian Falls which he claimed possessed a unique spiritual destiny. Joyner had a fascination and love for the Moravians and the area had distinct historical value. According to Joyner, the rural community of Moravian falls had been an epicenter for Moravian newspaper publishing in the area. Their local paper had reportedly been called “The Morning Star.” Naturally this was a sign from God for Rick.
Although I digress, I must assert the fact that for Joyner and his followers, everything was a sign from God. I can still vividly remember Robin McMillan, a member of the MorningStar leadership team, picking up trash from the street, on his way to a meeting. I remember sitting there incredulous as he held up each item of trash and told us its’ prophetic interpretation. In the mind-bending environment cultivated by the experience-seeking MorningStar crowd, everything became a sign. Seeing leaves blowing in the wind might be a sign that God wanted us to turn over a new leaf. Finding a penny in the street might cause us to believe it was time for change. We lived like this! Of course, when you are living in the Land of Oz, seeing colored horses or tiny men singing Ooompah, is not at all strange. What is common place in your environment is never viewed as peculiar. This is why women stay with their abusive husbands and why we choose to stay with abusive ministries. I was terrified that now, having discovered that the Great and terrible Oz was just an illusion, I might in time discover that God Himself was an illusion. If I left the false to find the God of the Bible, would I in turn find just another man behind another curtain? It was tyranny of the familiar. The tyranny that you “know” is always less frightening than the tyranny of the unknown.
Joyner was very adamant that God had instructed him to build the Moravian Falls Project. He stated publicly on several occasions that he had been told by God to construct it out of quality material and craftsmanship because it “had to last.” In Joyner’s mind all signs had pointed to confirmation of these instructions. One of these confirming signs was the fact that the area had been the focus of the longest running court battle in United States history. The Moravians, who had settled there, had wanted the land deeded to God. . Whether this is true or not, I do not know. However, the fact that Joyner attached special significance to this land is unquestionable.
The retreat was to be place where the misunderstood prophetic community could gather and be fed and restored. One of the aspects most often talked about was the 24 hr worship center where they planned to offer non-stop worship “before the Lord” twenty- four hours a day. There would be lots where people could live full time and also cottages where people could come for “a season” to be refreshed and restored. Rick petitioned donations from his Charlotte fellowship, from his Morningstar conference attendees, and from his international base of supporters. “I go to prepare a place for you” Rick would say, and we would smile and clap. This vision of a prophetic utopian community was certainly no secret. He talked about it frequently and openly. Many people were eager to give towards and invest in the vision for this community trusting that Joyner would do as he said.
Many people from MorningStar bought land for personal homes in the area while others bought land to develop and sell as lots. The land prices in this small farming community sky-rocketed. However, the locals were not happy. The land was being priced out of reach for most locals and whisperings of MorningStar’s mysticism made this highly conservative church-going community nervous. MorningStar’s later refusal to pay land taxes did nothing to help the way most locals viewed this “ministry.”
Male students from the ministry school were often petitioned to go and help “Build the Kingdom.” Those with carpentry or painting skills were especially “encouraged.” Pleas for hands-on help were often given to the Charlotte fellowship and there seemed to be a steady stream of people going up and coming back from the mountains to help. There was no remuneration. They were expected to serve and many starry eyed students were happy to do so, gushing over the fact that they were helping Rick. If Joyner had “need” of them they were happy to serve whatever the personal cost might be. There were murmurings and mumblings among the ranks of those returning, however, it was difficult to get anyone to speak openly about “The Project.” No one wanted speak against the Lord’s “anointed” or question Rick. I remember once asking one of the men who had been there and he quickly changed the subject. The curiosity was too much for me – I had to know.
I asked several people where Moravian Falls was located and how I would get there but was always met with the same response. It was in fact very difficult to find unless you knew the area and knew exactly where to go. It was well over an hours drive and getting directions from anyone was near impossible. I soon discovered that few people in the Charlotte fellowship even knew how to get there and the amount of people who had been was in fact very small. This was curious to me considering the fact that it was being built as a public retreat and funds for the project were being raised on an ongoing basis.
It was almost a year later that I finally made it to the area. A sister church of the Charlotte fellowship was holding a women’s conference at Apple Lodge in Moravian Falls. I thought of it as the perfect opportunity to see this mystical land that they claimed held such infinite spiritual energy. When I saw “The Moravian Falls Project” my jaw dropped. There was nothing there. I could not believe it I could see Rick Joyner’s home, another personal home on the property and a privately owned lodge. That was it. All the talk, all the hype, and there was nothing there. Nothing! I was unconvinced, and kept asking others where it was. Even though I was seeing it with my own eyes, I was slow to believe. I had been told it existed so many times that not even the facts could convince me it was not true.
Apple Lodge was always spoken about as if it was part of the “Moravian Falls Project” but in actuality it was independently owned by Harry and Louise Bizzell. They were a pleasant couple, who were well spoken and had an unusual mixture of worldly sophistication and down home Southern hospitality. Harry was a kindly man with warm eyes and voice that inspired trust. Louise was a perfect hostess whose cooking would leave you talking for days. They had built a breathlessly beautiful bed and breakfast type lodge on Apple Hill which was open to the public. Listen to Rick Joyner as he explains how both he and the Bizzells came to live in Moravian Falls.
“A couple of weeks after I met Bob Jones, I received a call from him. He told me that the Lord had called me to “the mountains of North Carolina” and that he had seen the place that I was to go in a dream.
Having been told myself to go to the mountains of North Carolina, but seemingly not being to get past Charlotte, I was more than a little interested in this dream.
Bob went on to say that I was called to a place that was 100 miles from where I was (The Lamb’s Chapel) and 40 miles from the Tennessee border. To get to this land we would have to go almost due North on a major highway (which turned to be Interstate 77) and then west on another highway (which was US 421). He then described the property itself, saying there was a mountain overseeing the property that had a rock face, and there was a beacon on another mountain close by that could be seen from the property. He said that the gospel would go out to the world from that mountain. He said the land was measured from oak trees to white rocks, and there was a red roofed building in the middle. I asked Bob if the red roof could be a rusted tin roof, and he said that he thought it could be.
……I immediately told Harry Bizzell about the dream that Bob had. Harry was excited about this dream, but for me, not him. He and Louise were sure that their destiny was in Charlotte and that they would not leave their present location at The Lamb’s Chapel. As Harry was telling me this, I looked at the picture hanging above him, and I suddenly felt a prophetic anointing. The picture was of a chair that I recognized in the Bizzell’s back yard, but it had mountains in the background. I asked Harry who had painted the pictures. He said that his sister had painted it in their backyard and gave it to them as a gift. I then asked why she put mountains in it, and there was a heavy presence that seemed to engulf us both. I could tell Harry felt it too, but he was adamant that they were not supposed to leave Charlotte. I disagreed, but knew the Lord would have to persuade the Bizzells.
Soon after this the Lord spoke to me and said that Harry and Louise’s destiny in the mountains was so crucial that it actually held “life and death consequences” for their family. I felt a terrible burden from the Lord about this, but I did not feel that I could share this with the Bizzells without it really seeming manipulative. Even so, I knew I had to share it with them for their sakes. I was very clumsy when I shared this burden with them, but they took it very graciously but still remained adamant that they were called to Charlotte. I felt that I had done all that I could and would not say anything else, even though the burden did not go away…..
As I mentioned, I had been compelled to share a warning with Harry and Louise Bizzells that their calling to move to Moravian Falls was so important that it held “life and death consequences for their family.” A few months later, Harry accompanied me to Kansas City where we spent some time with Bob Jones. When praying for Harry and Louise, Bob saw a death in the family coming before the Bizzells moved into their purpose. Harry and I assumed this would be his mother, who was very old and was advancing into senility. This was sadly not the case. Not long after this, Harry and Louise’s young granddaughter died in a tragic car accident.
…..I was shown that Spicer had prayed and offered herself for the purposes of God, even to the taking of her life. She had done this with great sincerity, and in heaven she is a martyr who lay down her life for the purposes of the Lord. Spicer Wallace did not die in vain, and she has a great investment in her family’s destiny and in the Moravian Falls project. Soon after her death, the Bizzells, who had land in Moravian Falls, were living there preceding me by several years.
So, in essence, the Bizzells did not feel that they were to be involved in the “Project.” However, Rick warned them that their move to Moravian Falls was in fact the will of God and their disobedience held life or death consequences for both them and their family! When their grand-daughter subsequently dies in a car accident Rick states that God had revealed to him that Spicer had offered herself to God making her a martyr and her death an investment into the destiny of “The Project”
It is also interesting to note that Joyner speaks of another man in connection with the “Project” who was supposedly punished for his disobedience. This man’s name was Tom Hess who ran a ministry entitled The House of Prayer for All Nations, near the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. According to Joyner, this man had been given a few tracks of US land that he had been instructed (by the donor) to use for a “prophetic” purpose. One of the tracks of land just happened to be in Moravian Falls. Hess met with his board and it was decided that they would give Joyner a 99 yr lease on the property for $1.00 a yr. However, Joyner had apparently been warned by the Lord to not accept anything with strings attached and so he declined their offer. Joyner said that donations for Hess’s ministry immediately dried up. Paul Cain, who Joyner insisted did not know anything about the situation, later prophesied to Hess that he had some land that had a prophetic destiny and that this land was being wrongly tied up. Cain relates to Hess that God showed him that he needs to give the land back to those who had given it to him in order to avoid the Lord’s judgment on his ministry. As Joyner tells it, Hess immediately started receiving donations again once he released the land.
It is curious to me that Paul Cain believed that God would judge this man for not giving land freely to Joyner, while he himself was actively involved in homosexual activity and an alcoholic lifestyle. In this strange world I was a part of, you can openly see what sorts of things brought the greatest punishment.
Louise and Harry Bizzell were never officially a part of Morningstar and yet Joyner says that they helped lay the foundation. The Bizzels had built their lodge in the middle of an apple orchard in the mountains of Moravian Falls; an orchard which, according to legend, was planted by Johnny Appleseed. A ridge of land ran above the property owned by the Bizzells and Joyner first purchase here was this 46 acres tract as well as a small cabin below the ridge. It was in this cabin that Joyner penned his mystical New Age epic “The Final Quest.” As an interesting side note, I remember being in a service in which Joyner spoke fondly of the cabin and the spiritually active environment there. He added that he no longer let any one else use the cabin because they were polluting the atmosphere and interfering with the spiritual activity. It had struck me as such an odd thing to say.
After getting over the initial shock of learning that the only thing the Moravian Falls Project consisted of was Joyner’s Personal House, the Bizzells privately owned house, and their Apple Hill Lodge, I settled in for the conference. I must admit that the conference was not my motivation in going. I had started to question and research vehemently. However, I had been so steeped in the mysticism and aberrant doctrine of this movement that it was difficult to let go of the ideas and beliefs that had obtained such tenacious stronghold in my mind. Before leaving Canada, I had gone to two colleges and had also obtained a university degree from a prestigious, world class institution. Now, I found it hard to even think my own thoughts in a logical and coherent manner. Every thing was a sign and a symbol, even a fortune cookie could be seen as a message from God in my world. What had happened to me? My mind had truly been made over and perverted by the garbage I was ingesting. Fortunately, my heart was not totally corrupt and there was still a small ember of desire for the true and living God. I thank God that in Isa 42:3 (KJV) He Promises that,
“A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.”
If the flame is still lit, no matter how diffused and ineffective, He will not quench it, but thoughtfully and lovingly watch over it, tend it, and protect it until the flame can once again gain burn with intensity. That is what God did for me. He protected that small smoldering ember inside me, and he tended it until I reached a time where I could receive His Truth. He was faithful to me, even when I was not faithful to Him.
I can not remember much about the conference at Apple Lodge but one experience is indelibly etched in my memory. It was a warm sunny day and the mountains looked intoxicatingly beautiful and inviting. A group of ladies were lying on the lawn. I can not quite recall what we were doing out there, but I do remember us holding hands and praying at one point. However, after the prayers, some of us had dropped to the grass and were just lazing around, watching the clouds and enjoying the fresh mountain air. Suddenly, I became aware of the gurgling of a mountain stream. It was unmistakable and I listened with my eyes closed, smiling, and thinking about how refreshing it sounded. I don’t remember how long I stayed like that, eyes closed, listening, but eventually I looked over at a friend and said, “Let’s find it!” She looked at me bewildered and asked me what I meant. I told her I was referring to the brook or stream I was hearing. She shook her head and said, “There is no stream here.” I looked at her like she had just grown a third eye. There most certainly was a stream because I was listening to it. “LISTEN,” I said, raising my voice a little higher than I had anticipated. She smiled, closed her eyes again, and said nothing. Now I was angry. “I know you hear that. If you don’t want to go then I will go alone, but don’t pretend that you don’t hear it!” To my complete annoyance she said nothing, but got up and walked to another group of women. Within earshot of everyone, she said, “Tell her there is no stream here.” They laughed and nodded their heads vigorously, “nope- no stream here.” I got up, brushed the grass and leaves from my clothing, and started to walk away. “Go find the elusive stream”, they taunted, “Let us know where it is!” How dare they mock me! I stopped in the grass and listened not knowing what direction to go. “What’s wrong”, they shouted. I did not respond. I couldn’t hear it anymore and confusion was starting to envelop me. I went back to the spot where I had been laying and listened intently, but there was nothing; nothing but the sounds of birds and insects and leaves blowing in the crisp mountain breeze. I looked at the women pleadingly. Their mocking turned to understanding and they one after the other explained to me that I was having a supernatural experience. There is no stream, and they reassured me by telling me this had happened to others. Somehow it did not reassure me. It bothered me on a very deep level. It also spoke a truth to my heart in a deeply penetrative way.
I had spent a great portion of my spiritual life chasing after what I had heard. In fact, it was a very common thing in the circles I moved, for people to ask me what I was hearing. They asked me the question and I in turn asked others. When we wanted direction, or confirmation, we asked those we felt were gifted prophetically “what they were hearing.” In fact, I still occasionally have people talk to me about personal things and ask me “what I am hearing.” It is as if they feel that I can hear from God for them and give them direction, or interpret their dreams. My response now to all who would ask, is to seek God on your own behalf, read His word, sit under Godly counsel, and hear God for yourself! It is not that I feel that God can not speak through me, or through anyone in fact, that has submitted their life to Him and is saturated in His Word. However, I refuse to be a fortune- teller or someone else’s connection to a God they are not willing to seek and truly know for themselves.
The experience with the water showed me that I could not trust what I was hearing. It may have sounded good, it may have sounded appealing, it may have sounded right, and it most certainly had sounded real, but it was an illusion. Just as the vivid dreams that populate our sleep in the night's long hours, dissipate with the morning light, it too dissipated with the dawn of reasoning. Light does that.
Although this was my first experience with hearing things that did not exist in the natural, it would not be my last. It was only a few months later that I was in a prayer meeting at an associated church in Pineville, North Carolina, and again heard the gurgling of water. It was an infinitesimal church and on this occasion there were only four or five of us present. I got up, mentioning to them that I was going to check the bathrooms. It sounded as if someone had left a tap on. The few who were there remarked that they had not heard anything, but I was undeterred. Like the earlier experience in the mountains, the sound stopped when I tried to find the source.
In another experience around this same time, I heard a bell ringing. Lest you think that perhaps I was simply having auditory hallucinations, let me assure you that the bell ringing incident was heard by at least two other people.
However, the strangest incident by far, happened in my home. It occurred in my first year at MorningStar and left me very shaken. I had moved to a nice house near Fort-Mill South Carolina, near the old Heritage USA site. I had a house-mate that had left to go to Florida for a few days. She had a regular routine when she came in and it seldom, if ever, varied. I would hear her car crunching up the gravel driveway; footsteps on the porch, her keys jingle in the lock, and hear her call for her dog’s name in a sing-song voice. She did this every evening. On this particular evening, I had a friend over and we were chatting in the other end of the house. We heard my house-mate’s car on the gravel drive, heard her foot-steps on the porch, the jingle of her keys in the lock, and her familiar sing- song voice calling for her dog. Her dog tore across the house barking wildly, and my friend and I jumped up and scurried through the kitchen to welcome her home. There was no one there.
The dog was upset now and barking incessantly. I reached for the door, thinking she had gone out to get her suitcase from the car, but the door was still locked. I flipped the latch, opened the door, and looked out in the driveway, but neither my house-mate, nor her car, were anywhere to be seen. I turned to my visiting friend who by this time had a confused and almost frightened look on his face. He walked outside, looked around the house then stood on the porch starring blankly into the darkness.
“Where could she have gone that fast” I finally stammered. He turned to me with the oddest look on his face and said, “I don’t think she was ever here.” I laughed at him not even willing to entertain the idea. Even the dog was still looking for her, and her voice had been so unmistakably clear! Fear, confusion, and a sense of defilement washed over me. I turned to my friend and asked him if I was crazy. I could feel the prick of tears as I started reaching frantically in my mind for an explanation; any explanation! I had heard the car and I had heard the keys, I had heard the door open, and I had heard her call for her dog. My friend, looking downward, eyes to the floor, whispered haltingly, “I heard it, you heard it, the dog heard it, something or someone was here.”
My house-mate called several hours later. I asked her where she was and if she had been home earlier that evening. She said no, that she was still in Florida and would not be home for another day or so. She asked me why I would ask such a thing. I did not want to upset her, so I said that there was no reason, and told her to have a safe trip back.
I can not explain why I had these strange experiences or why I had any of the other unexplainable phenomena that seemed to happen so frequently in this river I was now submerged in. Unfortunately, these auditory experiences were far less troubling then the ones I was soon to have. However, they did start to open my eyes to the fact that simply believing something to be true did not make it so. Deception of this level was possible, even for someone who loved the Lord and considered herself sincere. I may have been sincere, but unfortunately I was sincerely wrong. This “River” I had so enthusiastically waded into years earlier, had deceived me. It was now more like a stagnant pond, bubbling in its own putrid filth. I wanted out.
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Impressive testimony. Thank
Impressive testimony. Thank you for sharing. I'm glad you're out of that hellhole. I hope many will follow.
Thank you for sharing, its
Thank you for sharing, its strengthning to see how the Lord calls his children, and a miracle if one listens to His gentle voice.
I realise that writing this in the detail you did, must bring back a lot of memories, i pray and hope that Jesus protects your mind and soul.
God bless you
Dear Mishel, You
Dear Mishel,
You wrote:
"However, I had been so steeped in the mysticism and aberrant doctrine of this movement that it was difficult to let go of the ideas and beliefs that had obtained such tenacious stronghold in my mind. Before leaving Canada, I had gone to two colleges and had also obtained a university degree from a prestigious, world class institution. Now, I found it hard to even think my own thoughts in a logical and coherent manner. Every thing was a sign and a symbol, even a fortune cookie could be seen as a message from God in my world. What had happened to me? My mind had truly been made over and perverted by the garbage I was ingesting."
I think feeding spirtually on "mixture" creates a double-mindedness, which creates great instability.
In the 'prophetic ministries' one is TAUGHT to listen, hear, see in the Spirit. That is what is esteemed and rewarded. Not common sense, rational thinking, reason and critical analysis. This is deemed 'unspiritual' as you have well documented.
It is my experience and observation that being in these prophetic enviorments also result in great confusion.
What you so clearly articulate in the above article is truly frightening. My heart goes out to you. I have come out of a similar place.
I feel as if I am able to think clearly and live in REALITY now. It has been quite a process to say the least. I have such a desire to love the truth and walk in the truth ONLY now. I am very grateful to the Lord Jesus for His loving faithfulness in forgiving me, setting me free and restoring me.
Mishel, thank you for writing your story. It is very helpful.
Thank you Mishel for creating
Thank you Mishel for creating this website, posting the articles and your testimony. It has helped my family, friends and me to draw closer to God and not follow the dominionism path that we were heading to. God Bless You!
Creepy manifestations at
Creepy manifestations at Morningstar, Mishel. But, given Joyner's occult mysticism, I am not surprised that his followers are placed in jeopardy of such demonic activity as you and others experienced. Thank God that He delivered you from the lion's mouth.
~ I saw Bob Jones once on
~ I saw Bob Jones once on TV.
As he was telling about a Cabin in the mountains
where he went that had spiritual happenings.
He said there was one man he named
who said he would not go back there.
As he couldn't take it!
Bob Jones said he once sat on the porch of this Cabin and wached little Pilgram spirits dance on the porch and jump all around him. I was amazed he was saying this on TV. As if it was as natural as breathing.
This was some time before Bentley's fall. Mybe there a little more carfeful about what they say opening now. (I don't know)
Yes- that is the same cabin-
Yes- that is the same cabin- as well Todd Bentley has spend time there as well and he described seeing angles playing and giving each other noogies ..crazy stuff
Has anyone considered that
Has anyone considered that Bob Jones has dementia? Perhaps he needs medical treatment for his delusions and hallucinations.
[b]To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20[/b]
I have been saying that for
I have been saying that for years! I mean he says things like:
The anointing is in the kidneys
angels vibrate clockwise and demons vibrate counter-clockwise
Sometimes he encounters a cross legged indian man on his trips to the third heaven ( third heaven -good- Indian man- bad)
oh gosh there are too many to list. Even when I was in Morningstar I would sit there and listen to him and think ..man I would have to be smoking crack to believe this guy. I would look around and no matter how crazy and of-side it was everyone would be taking it all in. Rick would always get up afterwards and confirm it all and say how wonderful and accurate Bob was. Well the things he spoke when I was there DID NOT and HAVE NOT come to pass- oh but wait that's right ..it is all coming back now. MorningStar teaches that a prophet only has to be I think 68 percent accurate. However I never saw ANY of the things he spoke come to pass- however I did see them "re-interpret" the prophesies.
That accuracy rate comes
That accuracy rate comes directly from Bob Jones. He said the following in an interview with Mike Bickle:
(Jones) ‘The Rhema (spoken word, for those not fluent in bible-ease) will be two-thirds right on. Not quite time for Ananias and Sapphira yet.’
(Bickle) ‘The Lord actually said that sentence to you?’
(Jones) ‘Yeah, I mean what he was really showing me was: I’m going to release the Rhema to where that many begin to move two-thirds right on with their words, and the other third will be like poppin’ a bullet at the enemy and he wouldn’t fire. It was a blank. And he (God) said: I’m the one that’s loading the gun, so there’s going to be some blanks there . . . the blanks is (sic) pointed in the general direction of the enemy anyway, . . . If I (God) release the 100% Rhema right now, the accountability would be so awesome and you’d have so much Ananias and Sapphira going on the people couldn’t grow.’
(from: http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2006/06/07/extended-thoughts-on-bob-jones/)
Renae, Jones and Bickle...
Renae,
Jones and Bickle... two peas in a pod! I've blogged extensively on IHOP being a cult! I've gotten quite a few confirmations from people who have been there and have been implored by others to get the word out!
There is no accountability in the Charismatic movement, but as I've said before money talks. If we stop supporting them, they will all go away.
I'm currently working on an article about "Christian elitism" and how it leads people into cultic churches. Mishel's report on Morning Star is a good example of what I'm talking about. (Again, thanks for writing this! I'm looking forward to part IV)
Joanne
Mishel, My husband and I are
Mishel,
My husband and I are living in Valdese, NC (For about 2 years now). We were excited to know we were living near Moravian Falls and had even kicked around the idea of living there.
On our trip to see Kim Clement at Wilkesboro, we found Rick's Moravian Falls compound. What a disappointment. I expected so many more homes, more activity. What I got was a very strange feeling as we drove through. I felt an oppression, of something almost cult like. This is before I had my eyes opened to all the error I have been involved in with "Charismania".
Thank God we didn't follow through with getting more involved with them.
We were occasionally attending one of Morningstar's churches in Hickory, NC which has since disbanded. They were an odd group of left-over hippies who seemed rather confused and disjointed. The whole "service" was nothing but "prophetic worship" and nothing else, some wondered about, some did art work. Little substance. We decided it wasn't for us, thank God.
I wonder though, is there really any true prophetic voices today? I believe that there is a gift of prophecy. However, I'm not sure I would believe anyone anymore with all the abuse I've seen. It's truely hard not to become a sceptic and cynical. How do you sort it all out, and not throw the baby out with the bath water??
There are certainly a few
There are certainly a few strong prophetic voices out there, but they are very unpopular and rarely heard of because they, *gasp*, speak truth. I would say anyone who prophesies concerning holiness and repentance (convicting people of their sins) on a regular basis are far closer to being legitimate than the money-loving manipulative false prophets of the charismatic world.
Joanne, I would love to read
Joanne, I would love to read your article about elitism when you finish it. I've posted a portion of a prophetic word in the forum given by Graham Cooke that is dripping with elitism which many of my friends are embracing as being from the Lord.
This is a harrowing
This is a harrowing description, you are an excellent writer. It would make a fine screenplay for a movie. Not that I don't believe you, I DO believe that you are depicting actual events that happened in the real world. That makes it even more chilling.
In the late 90's a friend of mine took several of us on a visit to Morningstar, from our small church in PA. He and us were enthralled with Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, "The Final Quest", and all of the music coming out of there. I remember now my friend taking us to a high hill overlooking the three red-roofed buildings and we marveled that that's where Rick Joyner, the man himself, lived and received his revelations. At one of the MS meetings Rick told us how he had been approached by several producers to have "The Quest" made into a movie (speaking of movies). But he hadn't decided then yet on how he wanted to present it (ie: live action or animation). I don't know what ever became of those efforts.
I'm also fairly sure that Rick told us that after he wrote those first two books (The Final Quest and The Call), God told him that He wouldn't be taking Rick back into the heavenlies on awesome adventures/symbolic odyssies. Then before you know it, out came "The Torch and The Sword". Maybe I didn't hear him right.
My friend has sinced moved to the Charlotte area and started a business of his own and is active in MS Ministries. I joined another church in PA since then which was very "active in the prophetic". We had prophetic training, and prophetic presbyteries, and prophetic activations and exercises, and prophetic services. We were taught how to "get a word" and I, much like yourself, was often astounded at some of the confirmation that I received. I mostly never had a clue what I was saying or where I was getting it from, although the feedback was always positive and some people would even break down crying.
I have left that church, but they are still going strong. I don't know if we were moving in occult or new age practices, but I do know that I don't care if I prophesy anymore. I want to abide in Jesus and have Him abide in me so I may never have to hear Him say "I never knew you!"
Charley
Mishel, I found your
Mishel,
I found your Morningstar stories on a different site last night and this morning followed up by coming to your site.
Your involvement and experiences described in these three parts are amazing.
My experience has been about a tenth of what you had. But I'm afraid that the outcome has left me feeling very distant from God. And this isn't recent. I've been dealing with this, post-evacuation, for about 10 years.
I was dilligent in reading the word. I spent hours everyday reading and praying. I wasn't a groundless, free-floating nut. But the nature of this movement is like a weed or crabgrass among the grass. It infects and defiles the good. It becomes impossible to surgically remove its intertwined branches from the healthy parts.
I can no longer allow myself to associate with the thoughts and feelings I once did. "Sensing the presence" is not something I am inclined to do. Understanding what my gifts, role and function in the body now are foggy. The failed promises of greatness and high expectations of that movement have left me without any vision or direction in my walk. My passion for Jesus is gone. My mind rarely thinks about him, let alone pray, study, etc.
I blamed God alot for things that went on. I didn't understand why he didn't say anything to me about it. I think you mentioned this same thought. I think I have pushed him away because he was no longer safe. If I could be deceived, by what I believed was him...
In one of your posts you worried about questioning if this movement was false, could God also be false. I have stood at that abyss. It is beyond fear. I have seen the Lord at work in my life, but it is extremely subtle. And rare. Otherwise my view is focused on the present and what I can do. In some ways a very humanistic view...almost.
I can attest that Jesus is Lord. He is God. But he is somewhere far away. Or perhaps he is as close as my breath, but I'm not allowing to "sense" or "feel" him out of fear.
Thank you for the articles.
Thank you for the articles. I think it is more effective if someone who has been there reports. This article came out from Rick Joyner today. If people would read their Bible, they would see that this doctrine is wrong.
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/html/textonly-010109-Joyner.html
Brian. I understand and
Brian. I understand and relate to how you're feeling. Thank you for sharing so honestly. I have the same reaction after leaving my old A/G church over three years ago. Since then, I don't feel the Lord like I used to. I am leery of feeling the "presence of the Lord" since I don't trust the experience any more. Primarily because there is no Scripture that tells us how God's Presence feels. None of the apostles told us that being around Jesus created a mystical state of euphoria. They said they saw, heard and handled the word of Life, but nothing about any kind of emotional high they got from being with Him. Without such guidance, I shy away from indulging it. But, I probably could, if I let myself. But, what would the purpose be? What command would I be obeying? Brother Lawrence talked about "practicing the presence of the Lord" but from where did he get such a practice? Chapter and verse please.
I thought that perhaps the sense of distance from the Lord was from becoming critical of people whom I used to admire and even support that may be saved, but mistaken. That, perhaps I was speaking ill of brothers and sisters and was receiving the spiritual consequence of those words and thoughts. I admit I would get very angry at being hoodwinked by those who became rich off their doctrines, practices and testimonies. But, another, closer look revealed that it was I who was looking for the things they offered. So, who is really to blame? Both, I'd say.
On the positive side, I am not confused and agitated as I was getting more and more at my old church (where I was an elder for the last several years). In fact, my mind and life is 99% quieter. That lines up with 1 Thess 4:11 and peace is a fruit of the Spirit. The other thing that tells me that although my prayer life is not what it used to feel like, nor as sought as it once was is that the effect of the gospel was and is at work in my life - The removal of sins. I do not live as I was when I was lost. Those life-dominating sins were taken from me by belief in the Lord, even back in the very beginning 33 years ago. When I got saved through the charismatic wing, I noticed that my life had changed powerfully. And, in ways that are biblical. The error did creep in right away but did not nullify that I had made peace with the Lord, whom I had known of all my life. That peace has remained, but the euphoric, subjective experiences have departed.
In order to continue teaching as I have always done, i started a home fellowship, where i still teach. Acts 2:42 is my
guiding verse. It works, but it is not an orthodox situation. It feels funny, I admit. But, where do I go? I have too many issues right away with the local churches. For example, I no longer endorse tithing to them. I think money has corrupted so many of them. So, I am staying put.
Thanks Stan. And back at you
Thanks Stan. And back at you for sharing and being honest.
I want to agree with your last paragraph. Its tough, almost impossible, for me to go to any church in my area. Too many issues come up, like the tithing thing. But starting a home gathering... Yeah, I just don't know where to begin, but that has been on my heart for a long time to do.
As for the past. I remember having a dream towards the end of my involvement in that movement. I walked through what I believed were different aspects of my life -- work, church/friend relationships, ministry, my walk with Jesus and my home life. Almost each of those aspects were like a mini play that always ended in disappointment. When I woke up I was afraid.
I would have chalked it up as mental junk or demonic if not for how one of those aspects turned out. It was towards the end of the dream, I was walking home, it was a VERY long walk and it went through a barren and dry farmland. It was flat, plain, boring and empty. But in the sky I saw the Lord. And he was looking pleased. In the dream I remember thinking that it was pleasing to the Lord for me to suffer all this disappointment.
I don't know if that dream was from Him. But I do know many things have played out much like that dream. Self-fulling prophecy? I don't know. But if it is from the Lord, then I have to believe that my current state will change and it will work out.
Now, I'm not pinning my hopes on some dream I had 10 years ago. Its just more personal then holding to some scripture like he will never leave us or forsake us. Its just not that helpful.
Hey, Brian: I feel for you,
Hey, Brian:
I feel for you, brother.
As to dreams, I'd say it is very likely from the Lord.
"When I woke up I was afraid." That reminds me of Job 7:13-14 When I say, 'My bed will comfort me, My couch will ease my complaint,' Then You scare me with dreams And terrify me with visions. . .
Also, Job 33 says: "For God may speak in one way, or in another, Yet man does not perceive it. 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, While slumbering on their beds, 16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction. 17 In order to turn man from his deed, And conceal pride from man, 18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit, And his life from perishing by the sword."
In the dream I remember thinking that it was pleasing to the Lord for me to suffer all this disappointment.
Boy, I bet that is true! That may be necessary for only a time, as Peter says. Who knows how long? I don't. You don't. God has to be the doctor, we have to be the compliant patient. James says that if we are afflicted, let us pray.
God has used dreams in my life to instruct/warn. I knew they were from Him. I see the same thing with yours. A life of disappointment when you were looking for one of fulfillment. God has exquisite control of your life, just as He does with mine and every other created thing. Man needs the disciplines God has placed within His once perfect world He made for us. We need the hardships, the curse. The sinner resents and rebels at them. He raises his fist in defiance as He curses God to His face. The righteous see all of it as proper and humbles himself under His mighty hand. Jesus submitted to abuse, persecution, having no place to lay His head, and to the government executing Him. He is our example. We are to endure hardship because there is no escaping at least some of it.
We have to realize that in these days of sanctification, we are under discipline from the Lord for the sake of our souls and His eternal plan. There are so many things that God has to weed out of our lives. He uses the hardships of life to occasion those changes. We pray, He gives grace. We may be rejected. I am now. Hardly any from the church I served for 25 years calls or comes by anymore. Am i worse off? No. We both must remember, Blessed are you who weep now, For you shall laugh. 22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man's sake. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
The things that Joyner and John Crowder and Patricia King and company teach is that joy arises from mystical experiences. Yet Jesus says that it comes from being a rejected, hungry, weeping, hated outcast who does not go with the flow. One who embraces truth rather than soulish and temporal comforts of liars.
As to you starting a fellowship. If there are only two or three, that is enough to have Jesus in their midst as Matthew tells us. If they are all committed to learning the apostle's doctrine and praying and sharing communion, what's wrong with that if Jesus is there? Nothing. Jesus spent much of His intense discipline with the three, Peter, James and John. He has not changed MO.
Do you know at least one or two others that you could invite over to your home for a couple of hours on at least a weekly basis? If you teach, do so. Things will go from there. You'll get the fellowship you need. Hebrews 10 tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. I am sure there are some that can help you obey that. God bless you.
Man, thanks for all that. It
Man, thanks for all that. It was really good to hear. Nourishment.
Brian, What you've written is
Brian,
What you've written is so much like my story. Only I have only been out of the Matrix for about 1 year. I made my final exit with the
Todd Bentley fiasco. Sometimes I wish I was still in the Matrix and blissfully ignorant. However, even while I was in it all, I had some real red flags raise up in my mind.
This painful process is a process of deconstruction in order to build on a correct foundation and it's PAINFUL!!! I too have real problems relating to God and praying and trying to figure out what's real. I soooo miss feeling God's presence, wondering if it was really God's presence so I don't listen to worship music for right now nor any Christian TV or teaching till I feel it's OK. If/when I do start up with the previous mentioned, I will be extremely careful, praying for my decernment to develop.
My heart goes out to you, it grieves my heart for the pain your in.
I no longer attend organized church and will never go back. I found a good agenda-free home church. Try to find one if you can. I searched the internet for a group, and that's how I found this one.
Try going to a blog/forum that is geared toward us recovering "Charismanics", it's run by one of the guys who posts here: Peacebringer. You can find a link for it with any of his posts.
I think that the biggest delusion and hook that the Kingdom Now/NAR types have deluded us with is that it gets our focus on US and what WE experience and what WE can have Dominion over, etc, etc. instead of focusing on Jesus and glorifying him. But my problem is not having anymore passion to even try to glorify Him........OK, I'll stop whining. Back to the basics.
God Bless,
Jeanne
It is awful to hear your
It is awful to hear your stories of desperation and damage because of these apostate ministries.
God is not mocked and although we may doubt our standing within the Body of Christ, His spirit remains our councillor.
We are baptised into His death so that we may live with Him, Hallelujah.
I am following a word from God concerning house churches. I believe that The Lord has given the same vision to many of His people across the globe.
It is to be based upon the early church model of a people who were visible within the community and presenting a practical demonstration of the love of God to the lost, lonely and hurting in society.
God bless and keep you,
Pete
Its interesting. Last night I
Its interesting. Last night I was thinking about what Stan wrote. And I was thinking about how it was pleasing to the Lord that I go through this (from the dream). Then I thought about what I got out of it. Well, I reasoned, I got my brain back. But then I thought at what cost? My intimacy with Him, passion for Him, my involvement with Him. But then the thought crossed my mind, the Lord gave that up with me too, just so I could be more healthy. He sacrificed His relationship for me, so I could be better. He was willing to go without the thing that brought him pleasure so I could be healthier.
What's really interesting about this is that Jesus told me to do this with my wife months earlier to help repair some damage in our marriage. I had to let go of some things I got pleasure out of in our marriage and free her to be in her own space. I could have kept holding onto the parts of her that I liked for my own gain, but doing so wouldn't allow us to deal with the parts of both of us that were unhealthy. If I no longer wanted the unhealthy I would have to sacrifice the parts that were healthy. Kind of sounds like a certain tares and wheat parable. And more specifically Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
Anyways, Jeanne thanks for your concern. Much of the pain of loss is long gone. It has been ten years of slowly dealing with this. I'm left with trying to understand what I do now. I also get freaked out when I can go weeks without giving any real thought or effort to Him. I would very much like that commitment, determination and passion back. But, if he orchestrated this, then he probably will orchestrate that too. Only, I would think, when that happens it will be different, better, more healthy.
Previous anonymous, I agree that globally the Lord is up to something when it comes to the methodologies of "doing church." There is a lot of discussion going on out there about this subject. Whatever structure that may take I firmly believe that the Lord is wanting people to stop "going to church" and start being the Church. This idea has been discussed for decades, but I think there is a critical mass of people now and an awareness that something is missing in the current models. Godspeed in your efforts.
Hi Again, Brian. Some more
Hi Again, Brian.
Some more thoughts from the Word: Deuteronomy 8:3, speaking to the new generation that grew up in the wilderness for the last 38 years while their unbelieving parents died off So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.
And: from 2 Chron 32:31b, speaking of King Hezekiah when the ambassadors came from Babylon: . . . God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart.
From Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in His holy temple,The LORD's throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.
From Hebrews 12:5-11 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: " My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
From Jesus in Rev 3:19 : As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
The hunger that God speaks of in Deuteronomy is to see if we will return to these delightful, subjective experiences that these aberrant, ear-tickling ministries offer. God left Hezekiah to see if he would show off the riches and holy things that God had given the nation to the Babylonian ambassadors. He did. He failed. He acted in pride. Judgment came.
The Lord tests us with his eyelids. That is like when someone squints at another whom he is examining. That squinting look (which we've done with kids) is to try us. When God squints, we feel the pressure of those lids by trial. We are to pray when He does that. The Our Father contains a prayer our Advocate gave us : Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
God wants to see if we will return to these wonderful experiences to ease the hunger of the soul, or will we stay loyal to the diet of the manna He provides - the sincere milk of the Word of God.
One of the things we need to admit about ourselves is that we were not drawn to these ministries for no reason. There are things in our hearts that need to be excised by God. Trial and deprivation brings them out. We have desires for the mystical, the magic, to overturn the curse, to have God recreate for us today an oasis from the river of Paradise. We want the ease of pain caused by our sin. We want the high life now. We want to prosper, to decree the will of God into existence, to order angels about. We want to show off our spiritual experiences and benefits to the dead, pharisaical churches whom we look down upon for their stale orthodoxy. All the while, we think, "This'll convince them that they're wrong and we're right! This'll win the world in quick order! Praise and worship the Lord."
We are being chastened for our good, not our ill. Lamentations 3:26-33 says 26 It is good that one should hope and wait quietly For the salvation of the LORD. 27 It is good for a man to bear The yoke in his youth. 28 Let him sit alone and keep silent, Because God has laid it on him; 29 Let him put his mouth in the dust— There may yet be hope. 30 Let him give his cheek to the one who strikes him, And be full of reproach. 31 For the Lord will not cast off forever. 32 Though He causes grief, Yet He will show compassion According to the multitude of His mercies. 33 For He does not afflict willingly, Nor grieve the children of men.
God lays it on us, let us bear it with trust. He does not do it willingly nor grieve the sons of men from His heart. He does what He has to. That's all. Just as Hebrew admonishes those under discipline : 12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
How do we stengthen those hands and knees? By looking to God in trust for our lives. Stop being afraid of His dealings. Stop fainting as if something horrible, or some strange thing, is happening to us. How do we make straight paths for our feet? By repentance from these errors. By zealously staying true to the Word of God and the God of the Word even when a sign or wonder may pull us toward some strange teaching that tickles our ears. Then, by patience and trust and confidence in the dealings of God we will no longer be spiritually lame, but we will be healed in our souls.
I pray this helps you Brian.
Stan
My place of worship is
My place of worship is reading everything about Graham Cooke . He talks alot about the love of God . I know he is an emergent church type, but what do I have to be careful with about him.
Make sure you compare Graham
Make sure you compare Graham Cooke's teachings to scripture. He has things on the Elijah List and has some questionable associations with people like Patricia King. There is a thread on the Deception Bytes forum about him and a prophecy that he recently gave. You can read it here: http://deceptionbytes.com/dbforum/index.php?topic=77.0
What did you mean , Renae,
What did you mean , Renae, when you said , he was dripping with elitism?
I am having a very hard time in my place of worship right now. I am backing out a little at a time. Almost done, but I feel I am leaving people I love behind. What if I am doing the wrong thing? I just want to be like it use to be, I mean Iwas on my own. I almost feel a sense of relief when I think I will never go back.
In the prophetic word that
In the prophetic word that Graham Cooke gave to the ministry, he kept telling them how they were going to be elevated over other believers.
For instance he said this: "...a word I believe has been spoken over (the ministry) from Heaven and the church must hear it. It's a kingdom word. It can only be heard, understood and acted upon by apostolic personnel--people who really understand the nature of the kingdom and what the kingdom is. See, there are church people and there are kingdom people. And there are churches that are kingdom communities and there are churches that cannot even spell kingdom."
To me, this is a form of elitism...elevating one group of believers over another, and I do not believe it is scriptural.
I think you'll find that many of us that had been involved in churches and other organizations that were part of these false movements are struggling as we come out. It's very hard to leave behind people you love, and I know that I've too longed for things to go back the way they used to be. Websites like this help, because you learn that you are not alone. May God bless you as you continue to seek Him and His truth.
Unexplainable
Unexplainable Visions
Mishel,
After being heavily involved in Maranatha between 1998-2000 (and yes it is one of the same Maranatha groups started by Bob Weiner -- a regular with Rick Joyner's lair) I had many dreams and visions. One possible explanation is that when one is caught up into a combination of:
1) Suppression of information from the leaders
2) Magical World view of nature being interpreted as signs and source of direction. This is known a "nature philosophy" is dates back hundreds of years, especially to the teachings of an occult German-Swiss doctor named Paracelsus, a contemporary of Martin Luther.
3) A reinterpretation of reality by New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) leaders, Joyner being a major player.
Exactly right--MorningStar is
Exactly right--MorningStar is simply another HIPPY-MOVEMENT. They want to recapture it and have Woodstock all over again. The root of their errors is the love of demonic music--ROCK MUSIC. Rather than renouncing it and exposing it, like Charismatics USED TO DO in the early eighties, they promote it. This is no small error. Rock music is from the Devil.
Based on all these
Based on all these comments--how many of you still live near Charlotte? It sounds like a home meeting together, where simply with guitar in hand, we sing songs to Jesus our Lord, pouring out or hearts and reverance for Him, and opening the Holy Scriptures for a time of study would be a blessing. I would love to help facilitate this. Let me know. I don't want any of you to fade away, but rather, to return to your first love, and earnestly pursue the Lord and a study of His Word, and re-ignite a zeal for the lost. Remember, while all this lunacy and hurt goes on with groups like MorningStar, people GO TO HELL every day. We must focus on what matters most to the Lord--the lost.
I really would like to know
I really would like to know how you came out of this strange world Mishel. So if you have time for part 4, 5?